Strata operations: Handling personal information in a digital world

0:00 – Meet Shawn Smith, Strata Property Lawyer

0:00 Ryan Grant: Hello Shawn, good morning, how are you?

0:03 Shawn M. Smith: I'm well, thank you.

0:03 Ryan Grant: Yes. Maybe you want to introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit more about Cleveland…

0:11 Shawn M. Smith: Well sure, thank you. So, I'm a strata property lawyer, which means that I deal with all the legal issues that strata corporations face day in, day out, and those can be from drafting bylaws, to collecting money, to answering questions about the Personal Information Protection Act. I've been doing this for 20-plus years and have never been bored.

0:34 Ryan Grant: And you guys are currently located in White Rock?

0:36 Shawn M. Smith: We are, but we serve stratas throughout the whole province.

0:39 Ryan Grant: Perfect. Okay, do you have your slide deck?

0:42 Shawn M. Smith: I do. We'll see if this works.

0:45 Ryan Grant: Yeah, I see it there, perfect. I'll let you begin.

0:49 Shawn M. Smith: All right. Well, good morning ladies and gentlemen, thanks for joining us. So, the title of the presentation was handling personal information in a digital world. I'm not overly techie, so what we're really going to talk about is the obligations of the strata corporation to comply with the Personal Information Protection Act.

1:06 – PIPA Basics and Personal Information Defined

1:15 Shawn M. Smith: And so I have talked a little bit about who we are, so I'll just jump into talking about the Personal Information Protection Act. I'm going to start just talking generally about the Act, setting the background, then we're going to look at applying it in particular circumstances, some of which will involve digital things such as video surveillance and fob access systems. So there are more than just the Strata Property Act for strata corporations to worry about.

1:47 There's the Human Rights Code, and there's also the Personal Information Protection Act, which in shorthand we refer to it as PIPA. So throughout the presentation you'll see that. PIPA, that's what it stands for. PIPA governs the collection, use and disclosure of personal information by organizations, and that includes strata corporations. Which leads to the question, what is personal information? So, it's information about an identifiable individual. I've included the whole definition from the Act, but it's really that first bold point that we're focusing on.

2:31 And so it's anything that relates specifically to an individual. So, some very obvious things, like your name is personal information, your age, your parents. But other things connected to you, like your email address, or your phone number, or even in a strata setting sometimes what pets you have, or what the licence plate number of your car is, bank account information.

2:51 – Express Consent, Implied Consent and Exemptions

2:54 Shawn M. Smith: All of that is personal information because it connects directly to you. So in order to collect, use or disclose an individual person's personal information, the strata has to comply with certain requirements of PIPA. So just pause for a moment, we'll talk about what we mean by collect, use, disclose. So collect is to gather. When you're asking someone for personal information you have to have their consent, or a statutory exemption, to do that.

3:31 The same with using it. So using it is basically, what are you going to do with it, why are you collecting it, what do you intend to do with that information? And then of course disclosing it is, who are you going to give it to and why? So in order to do any of those things you have to have an individual's consent. So that could be express consent, implied consent, or there are some statutory exemptions, and we'll talk about each of those.

4:03 The bottom underlying factor is, an organization has to disclose to the individual, verbally or in writing, the purposes for the collection, use and disclosure of the information. So somewhere you have to know why the strata is asking for what it's asking for. Express consent is relatively straightforward. It'll be something like, you know, tick this box if you want to receive emails. And in a strata setting, again, it may be, tick this box if you want to receive emails from the social committee.

4:39 When you fill out your pre-authorized payment form, you're giving express consent to the strata to use that to collect money. Implied consent is a little bit trickier, but it happens quite a lot. So, implicit consent or implied consent, it's sort of, if you think about it, the opt out scenario. So an organization has to provide notice of its intention to collect, use and disclose information, and then provide a reasonable opportunity for the person to decline, either not to provide it or to opt out.

5:17 If the person doesn't decline, or does not opt out, then the strata has consent to use that information for the purposes that it's disclosed that it's going to use them for. There are also some statutory exemptions when consent isn't required. So those are set out in sections 12, 15 and 18 of PIPA, and each of those sections relates to a different part of the spectrum: collection, use, disclosure.

5:49 I didn't list them all because there's quite a few exemptions, but some of the more common ones are, you can use or disclose someone's personal information if it's in the best interests of the individual and their consent can't be obtained in a timely way. So perhaps you're contacting the next of kin in an emergency. The use or collection or disclosure is authorized by law, so there's a law, or in the case of a strata a bylaw, that authorizes that use.

6:20 It's information available from a public source: if your phone number is publicly listed then there's no need to get your consent to use it to call you. Or disclosures to a lawyer representing the organization, so if a strata needs advice they can provide personal information about the owners, tenants, occupants to the lawyer for the purposes of getting that advice. Section 23 of PIPA is another provision that stratas need to be aware of.

6:52 And so, on the request of an individual, an organization must provide to that individual certain things.

6:58 – Section 23 Requests and Strata Duties

7:03 Shawn M. Smith: One of those is all of that individual's personal information that's under the control of the organization. So, do you have that person's name, their phone number, their email address? What do you have about them in your records that is personal to them? The ways in which it's been used, and also who it's been disclosed to. And so I think most strata corporations would not be in a position to readily answer those questions.

7:33 So when we think about document management, those are things that stratas need to take into consideration. They have to be able to answer those questions. For example, who's made a request to see correspondence that you've sent into the strata? PIPA also sets out some requirements for all organizations, including stratas, to meet. So one of those is, it has to make reasonable security arrangements to prevent unauthorized access and use of that information.

8:09 So I came in just on the tail end of the PowerStrata presentation, so that would be a good example. You know, is your system where you're storing your documents, is that secure? Who has access to it? Can anyone get in there? Is it password protected? If you're still keeping paper records, is it in a locked filing cabinet? Who has access? How are those going to be protected?

8:35 And for council members, think about when you're at home: have you printed things off, are they sitting on your desk, who's going to be able to see or access that information? Because these obligations apply not just to the corporate entity but to the officers and directors of the entity. Take reasonable steps to ensure the accuracy of the information. So if you're recording something about somebody, how accurate is it?

9:01 Do you have their phone number right? You have to allow access to that information on request, so that goes back to what we just talked about about section 23. And then you have to establish a policy for how you're going to manage that information. And then you have to appoint a privacy officer, so that person's job is basically to monitor compliance with PIPA requirements and deal with requests under section 23.

9:34 And so those duties are not only set out in the legislation, they've been underscored by the Civil Resolution Tribunal in this particular case. So this case dealt with the duties of stratas and confirmed that one of the duties under the Strata Property Act is to comply with PIPA.

9:45 – How Stratas Collect Personal Information

9:57 Shawn M. Smith: So what are some ways in which strata corporations collect personal information? Because you may think, well geez, do we really? Well, in fact you actually collect a lot of information about people. So anytime somebody fills out a form, whether it's a contact info form, or pre-authorized debit form, or vehicle registration, clubhouse rental form, you're getting personal information about that individual. Everything from their name, to their licence plate number, to their email address, through to their bank account information.

10:28 Stratas also collect information required under a bylaw. So under the standard bylaws, owners and tenants are required to provide certain information upon moving in. Many stratas expand that in terms of bylaws and rules. Pet registration bylaws might be an example: you're giving information about what pet you own. Correspondence is a common example. There's going to be letters and emails to the strata talking about things that your neighbour did, if you're writing in a complaint letter.

11:04 Requests that people are making for alterations, or requests perhaps even for a therapy dog. All of that, if it relates to an individual, is personal information. Video surveillance systems and electronic fob access systems also collect personal information. We're going to spend a bit of time in a few minutes looking at those. And also, when you attend a meeting you're being recorded that you're at that meeting, in particular a council meeting where they list the people who have showed up.

11:36 And that list is by no means exhaustive, but those are sort of the common examples and ways in which stratas collect personal information, which then ties into its obligation to have consent to collect, use and disclose it.

11:50 – Reasonable Requests and OIPC Guidance

11:53 Shawn M. Smith: And so then again, that's just a list that I've already sort of touched on about the type of information that stratas collect from their residents. So under PIPA you're not allowed just to ask for anything from anybody for whatever reason. The request has to be reasonable. So, would a reasonable person consider it reasonable to be asking for that information? So in the case that I've cited below, they were collecting information from people who were using units for short-term accommodation.

12:29 They were taking copies of driver's licences and all sorts of information. And there was a challenge under the CRT that went to the Supreme Court, and in the end the decision was that that information exceeded PIPA, because there wasn't a reason for collecting it. So think about why you're requesting information from owners, and be prepared to justify it if there's ever a challenge. And you can't ask for more than is necessary.

13:00 So that ties into, why are we asking for it, in order to achieve a purpose, are we getting only what we need to achieve that purpose? The Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner is who actually governs PIPA and deals with complaints where there's been a failure to comply with PIPA. So they've produced some guidance documents on a number of different topics, because PIPA applies to all organizations of every stripe and colour.

13:38 The strata one, they have a guidance document, privacy guidelines for strata corporations and strata agents. So that's a good thing for both strata managers and strata councils to have handy as a quick reference when dealing with PIPA issues. So now that we've laid the groundwork, we're going to touch on some of the ways in which PIPA applies practically to stratas.

13:58 – Email Correspondence Under PIPA and Section 35

14:04 Shawn M. Smith: And email is one of the things you're thinking about in a digital world. We have digital communication, it's a primary means of communicating between owners and strata managers, strata council members. It's the primary way in which we all communicate between each other. It's correspondence under section 35 of the Act, and I know later there's going to be a talk on documents under section 35, so I'm not going to go there in detail.

14:38 But this begs the question, how are you managing all of that email correspondence? How are you recording it for section 35, and more importantly for PIPA, how are you making sure that it's protected from access? Because it's going to contain personal information about people, starting with the fact that you have their email address. That's personal information. And sorry, I'm just going to pop back just one slide.

15:06 Also in terms of how is it managed, think back to section 23 and the ability of an owner to request what personal information the strata has and who it's been disclosed to. How are you going to meet that in terms of tracking email correspondence? An email… We all, you know, often we have shared email accounts at our house. Are we using that for strata business? And think then how PIPA applies to that.

15:38 So the email that you as a council member are using for strata business, do you share it with your family? Who else has it? Is access just a click of an icon on your laptop, or is it password protected? If you're printing them off, what are you doing with them? Are you just leaving them about? And how are you permanently saving them? Because at the end of the day you have an obligation to protect that information, and then you have an obligation to make it available if somebody asks.

16:09 Video surveillance: when I first heard about the topic in the digital world, this is the very first thing that popped to mind, because there's a lot more video surveillance occurring now within stratas than there ever was. So if you're operating a video surveillance or a fob system, those are going to be subject to PIPA.

16:30 – Video Surveillance and Fob Access Systems

16:30 Shawn M. Smith: So what I mean about a fob system are the systems where you have the magnetic card, you swipe it and it lets you in and out of the building. In order for it to let you in the building it's got to confirm, first of all, that that fob is valid. Those fobs are often given a number and then tied to a particular strata lot. More sophisticated buildings use them throughout, for access to amenities, to elevators, and some of the systems in fact record when the card is swiped and in what location.

17:04 So both of those systems collect personal information, because you're recording when people enter and leave a building, when they access certain areas of the building, and what they do when they're on the common property. So the latter is really particular to video surveillance. As you're walking through a surveilled area, anyone looking at that can see whether you're carrying groceries, are you hiding something in the trunk of your car, what are you doing.

17:33 It's information about you. And then this was the case we're going to talk about in a moment, Icon I or II. It's a decision from the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner that dealt in quite a bit of detail with respect to video surveillance and fob systems. And so in that case the Privacy Commissioner detailed some of the things that video surveillance captures. And you can see it's details about your appearance, activities, behaviour, who you're coming in and out of the building with, and then again patterns of arrival and departure.

18:11 And that's why video surveillance is really sensitive when it comes to the issue of PIPA. The Privacy Commissioner set some basic requirements for video surveillance. So you can't just operate a system because you want a system, and you can't just surveil every area that you want to surveil. You have to give a bit of a thoughtful analysis. You have to justify why you need to operate a system beyond just, we live in a rough neighbourhood.

18:49 Have you had break-ins? Have you had problems? What else have you tried to do that's less invasive than putting in a video surveillance system?

19:00 – Surveillance Bylaws, Privacy Policy and Signage

19:00 Shawn M. Smith: And then, is it reasonable to record the area? So maybe it is reasonable to record exterior access. Do you really need to record what goes on in the hallways inside the building? So these are all things that you need to think about if you're going to put in, or operate, an existing video surveillance system. When you're going down this path you have to identify the detailed purposes for the surveillance in each area.

19:26 So what are you attempting to achieve? You have to pass a bylaw authorizing the use of the system, and preferably stating the purposes for which the system is going to be used. The privacy policy does not need to be in the bylaw, it can be a separate standalone document. It details who has access, how long it's stored for, where the cameras are located, etc. That's a document that would be available to owners.

19:57 I like it outside of the bylaw because it makes it easier to change should you need to tinker with any of those things. And you're also required to put up signage alerting people to the use of the video surveillance system, so that they can decide, if they're going to enter the building, that they don't want to be surveilled. There have been a couple of decisions of the Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner with respect to video surveillance.

20:23 – Shoal Point and Icon Surveillance Decisions

20:29 Shawn M. Smith: The first one was a number of years ago, the Shoal Point decision, and what came out of that was that you cannot sit down on a Sunday afternoon, because there's nothing good on TV, and look through the video footage looking for violations. Only if the strata receives a bylaw complaint, or if there's a break-in or some incident, can you go back and look at the video surveillance.

20:59 The footage can also only be used in relation to serious bylaw violations. So if there's some muddy footprints in the lobby you can't go surfing through the footage looking for that. The other thing it said is that you cannot have a live feed viewable by residents. In that particular case anyone in the building could click onto the video surveillance system and watch what people were doing. That's not permitted.

21:25 The other case I mentioned earlier, Icon I or II, it really looked at a lot of detailed things with respect to video surveillance. In the interest of time we're not going to go through them all, but just setting the stage: this was a fairly, say, digitally sophisticated building. They had video surveillance in 18 internal and 10 external locations, so they surveilled a lot of the building.

21:55 One of the areas was the entrance to the gym, swimming pool, hot tub area, and the others were the parking garage, exterior doors in the alley, etc. They also had a fairly sophisticated fob system, it controlled 30 access points throughout the building. So you can see there is a lot of digital information, personal information, collected by this particular strata. There's an owner in the strata who didn't like the way it was all being dealt with, thought that they were collecting too much, and that resulted in the complaint to the Privacy Commissioner.

22:29 The video surveillance, the strata said they were using it for a number of things. They would routinely monitor it for minor bylaw infractions, garbage disposal, discarding cigarette butts, and they had a real problem with short-term accommodation use. And so in this case the concierge — this building was big enough to have one — would, in between their other duties, sit there and watch the live footage and see if they could catch anyone.

22:57 They also said that they used it to prevent, detect and investigate break-ins, prevent damage, and to ensure the safety of owners, residents, provide emergency first aid. The last was the justification for why they were surveilling the hot tub and the gym. Icon also made clear that notification could be through the bylaw or the signage, and then the uses to which the system could be put depended very much on the wording of the bylaw that was in place, or the signage.

23:31 So this was the best example. The strata said they used the video surveillance to ensure safety of the complex, owners, tenants, occupants and visitors. But they used it, and that's what they said on paper… If you recall a couple of slides ago, when we looked at what they said, they said they used it to provide emergency aid to owners. The first did not justify the second. So this goes back to thinking about very carefully what are you using it for, and why, and making sure that that's properly recorded in the documentation.

24:08 In the end the Privacy Commissioner didn't like the scope of what they were surveilling and ordered the strata to cut it down. They could only use it to enforce the garbage disposal bylaw — they had a huge problem with people just throwing garbage everywhere — and to prevent and investigate property damage in the parkade. It could not be operated in any other aspect of the building because there was no evidence to show that there's a problem that needed to be addressed.

24:35 So again, with respect to the gym, no one had ever collapsed while using the exercise equipment or drowned in the pool, so there was no justification to surveil people coming in and out in their gym clothes, bathing suits, etc. Owner-operated systems are also becoming more common within stratas, so starting with the minimum of a doorbell camera all the way up to some owners like to put surveillance outside their units.

24:37 – Owner-Installed and Doorbell Camera Rules

25:07 Shawn M. Smith: The Civil Resolution Tribunal has looked at this issue and said that stratas have to have a PIPA policy in place in order for owners to put up cameras. So absent a bylaw, individual cameras can't be authorized. Those decisions were made in the context of orders being sought to remove cameras. But ultimately it's the Privacy Commissioner who decides whether or not that's the case. I always like to present an alternate view.

25:48 With respect to the CRT, I'm not entirely sure those decisions are correct under PIPA, because PIPA defines an organization that expressly excludes individuals acting in their personal domestic capacity. And then, owner systems are not operated by the strata, they're operated by owners. And then there's some support for that in the foot case. I always recommend to my stratas, if you're going to allow owner systems it's best to have a bylaw that regulates those.

26:14 But if you're looking to allow owner systems, best to seek some legal advice with respect to reconciling these two differing views. Icon also looked at fob systems. As you recall, the fob was used to track people's movements, and in fact the strata in that case used it to close down elevator access where they thought people were violating rules.

26:42 – Fob Data Collection and Tracking Limits

26:45 Shawn M. Smith: The Privacy Commissioner didn't like that. Basically it's okay to gather personal information to connect the fob to the particular owner, but in this case gathering any more data was not permitted. So in fact the strata was not allowed to track where the fobs were used and when, unless they could show a need to do that. And then using fob data has to be considered appropriate from the perspective of a reasonable person.

27:23 So if you are going to use it, it has to be a fairly severe situation. You have to think about whether it's reasonable to collect that and use it. You can't just collect it and use it for any and every purpose. So based on the Icon decision, if you're operating a fob system: understand what your system does and how it operates, determine what it collects, consider why that information needs to be collected, determine if collecting it complies with PIPA, determine if using it complies with PIPA, and then adapt your bylaw and privacy policy accordingly.

28:01 So if you are recording when people come and go in certain parts of the building, why are you doing that? What's the need for it? And if you are going to do it for a particular reason, then make sure that that purpose is set out in the bylaws and the privacy policy. On that similar note, I often get asked, can we use video and fob data for bylaw enforcement?

28:31 So certainly, if you're going to, there should be a bylaw that authorizes you to do that and the situations in which you're doing it. So, serious bylaw violations, and so I try and define those in the bylaws that I use. If you collect it though without proper authorization, you can certainly use it in a CRT proceeding, there's no prohibition at common law against using illegally obtained evidence.

28:49 – Video and Fob Evidence in Bylaw Enforcement

28:56 Shawn M. Smith: But beware, that could readily result in a PIPA complaint, and then you're going to have to explain why you collected, used and disclosed that information without proper authorization. I'm just looking at the time. I wanted to allow just a few minutes for questions, so I won't… I was just going to touch on meetings, but we won't do that unless there aren't any questions.

29:27 Ryan Grant: Yes, it looks like there's quite a few questions. Yeah, you can extend a little bit into lunch, because you're the last one before lunch. So it's up to you.

29:34 Shawn M. Smith: Right.

29:34 Ryan Grant: I'll let you decide.

29:36 Shawn M. Smith: Okay, all right. Well, maybe then, if I'm just going to nudge into lunch, I'll just quickly talk about two other things where PIPA applies. So, recording meetings: the general view under the guidance document is that you either need a bylaw that permits participants to record, a motion passed by majority vote, or everybody in the meeting consents.

29:52 – Recording Meetings and Minutes Content

30:06 Shawn M. Smith: So generally it should be discouraged. If you're using an electronic meeting platform, make sure that's turned off. And I actually put that in the bylaws that I draft, that just prohibits it outright, so the strata can have some ability to better enforce that. Minutes was the other thing I was just going to talk about in terms of PIPA. Just quickly think about what you've got in the minutes.

30:36 Don't be putting personal information about people in the minutes. Minutes record basically the decisions that were made. You don't need to have a discussion about all the details. I often get asked, is a unit number or a strata lot number personal information? It's not. So when we're recording things in the minutes you can use unit numbers, strata lot numbers, but not people's names. And then I will let the presenters this afternoon that deal with documents talk about PIPA and document disclosure.

31:16 So, turning to the questions. I think those are in… are they in the chat here, Ryan?

31:23 Ryan Grant: Correct.

31:23 Shawn M. Smith: Okay. So here's one: can a strata corporation give out an accounts receivable list that shows the names of the owners? So, I said I wasn't going to talk about documents and PIPA, but I guess I will.

31:37 – Q&A: Document Requests, Redaction and Consent

31:37 Shawn M. Smith: So under section 35 of the Act, a strata keeps documents, and an accounts receivable list is one of those, it's part of the books of account. Section 36 allows owners to request anything listed in section 35. So one of the questions that arises is, does PIPA apply to document disclosure? And the answer to that is no, you don't have to redact any of the information or protect people's information when it comes to a document request under section 36.

32:07 That's because section 36 is disclosure authorized by law. So the CRT has looked at this on a number of occasions and has said that stratas don't need to redact documents when they're requested. So if somebody asks for the accounts receivable list, the strata can give it with the owners' names. Similarly, if someone asks for copies of correspondence, we don't redact those. So, another good question: can a strata corporation forward an owner's email to a contractor to do work that the owner has requested, without consent from the owner who sent the email?

32:55 So that raises, do you have implied consent? And if not, then you need express consent. So somewhere in the conversation, if the councillor said, yeah, we'll contact the plumber and we'll give them your contact information so they can connect with you, and that owner hasn't written back and said, no please don't do that, then I would say you'd have implied consent. But otherwise you shouldn't just be forwarding off email addresses or cell phone numbers without an owner's consent.

33:37 No, lots of good questions. I'm just trying to see… yeah, quite a few. So, a couple of questions here. Emails between council members, do they fall under PIPA and section 35? So they're not correspondence for the purposes of section 35, but they may still contain people's personal information. So if you're all emailing as a council amongst each other with respect to a certain problematic owner — and sadly we all seem to have those — you don't need to keep those discussions as part of section 35, but you need to make sure that the details in those emails are protected.

34:27 So don't print them out and leave them where other people can find them, chuck them in the general recycling. You know, again, is it a shared email box, PIPA applies in that respect. Good question: what should be done when someone erroneously cc's all owners into a communication? So if there is a privacy breach, whether you've accidentally disclosed people's information or somebody hacked in and got it, PIPA does have requirements for disclosing that, dealing with it.

35:06 So you'd want to get some legal advice with respect to what to do in that particular situation.

35:11 Ryan Grant: Does using unit numbers disclose the owners and tenants?

35:32 Shawn M. Smith: Yeah, and I've always wondered about that myself, because if you say it's Unit 101, everyone knows who's in Unit 101. But generally speaking that's fine, because what we're talking about is… So if you see, an example, if you put in the minutes, the strata council decided to impose a fine against, you know, 101, that's all right, because we're talking about a charge that's been levied against a unit.

35:49 – Q&A: Unit Numbers, Complaints and Doorbell Cameras

35:56 Shawn M. Smith: We're not talking about necessarily the details of why that fine arose. And that's fine. But I don't think there's any issue, even in a small strata, with using unit numbers or strata lot numbers.

36:15 Ryan Grant: We'll take just a few more questions there. And I just want to remind everyone that any of your questions that are submitted, we are going to try and follow up with additional podcasts or newsletter, so don't worry about any questions going fully unanswered. We're going to do our best to make sure everyone's questions do get answered at some point.

36:34 Shawn M. Smith: Okay. Maybe I'll just take this last one here: what about complaints when someone doesn't want retaliation? So unfortunately, if you write in about your neighbour and complain about something they've done, they are entitled to request that letter or email under section 36, and the case law very clearly says it's not to be redacted. So the strata's hands are somewhat tied. So if you are sending them a complaint, I think you need to be cognizant of the fact that someone may know about that.

37:16 I actually explicitly put that in the privacy policies I prepare, so that people are notified that if you send this in, understand that we may be required to disclose it to anyone who requests it. One thing I should say about section 36 and PIPA is, it doesn't authorize council passing out documents with personal information where there has been no request by someone. So if you want to hand out the AR list just for reference at the general meeting, you would have to redact everyone's names, email addresses, etc, because no one's requested it.

37:55 It's council volunteering, and in that case PIPA would apply. And then maybe I'll just answer the last one, a couple about doorbell cameras. I know I kind of whizzed through that quickly. I always realize at the end of the presentation I should have cut it in half.

38:27 Ryan Grant: No, there's lots of good info.

38:27 Shawn M. Smith: So doorbell cameras are… So I talked about the CRT decisions, and they largely dealt with issues of people making alterations, of affixing cameras, or doing things. So the CRT said, well, largely putting up a video surveillance system is an alteration, and then stratas should have a PIPA policy. Setting those aside for a sec: if it's not an alteration, if you're simply sticking in a doorbell camera, you're not fixing anything or cutting holes in the door to make it bigger, you're not really altering anything, so you're not going to have to get permission, so an owner could do it.

39:16 And the other issue that I've encountered over time is, what does it capture? So in some of the newer townhome complexes there's people's garages, front doors, bedrooms right across from each other, so often we get complaints about, you know, someone's filming into my unit. Again, I think a bylaw is the best, that says owners need to get permission, you need to show us where you're going to put it, how it's going to be aimed, what it's going to record.

39:44 And then that helps the strata to regulate it and make sure that there aren't problems. If you don't have that bylaw, somebody didn't make an alteration, simply put in a doorbell camera, then I don't think there's much a strata can do about it.

40:01 Ryan Grant: Awesome. Thanks for all your informative presentation again there, Shawn. I really appreciated it. And it looks like we're still getting lots of questions coming in, so we'll have a lot to talk about in a future session. So this is really great. And now I guess everyone can go to lunch. We're going to have a lunch break, and then when we come back we'll cover some of the raffle and early registration gifts that we're going to be giving away.

40:29 And then we'll get into the online dispute resolution tools by the Civil Resolution Tribunal. Thanks again Shawn for coming, and see everyone soon.