Strata operations: What’s in your toolbox?

0:00 – CHOA Condo Classroom Program Overview

0:00 Ryan Grant: Next up we have Tony Gioventu from the Condominium Home Owners Association of BC. He'll be covering strata operations: what's in your toolbox? Let's bring in Tony.

0:12 Tony Gioventu: Hey Ryan, how are you doing today?

0:15 Ryan Grant: Good. How about yourself?

0:15 Tony Gioventu: Good, good. Hope the morning sessions went well.

0:18 Ryan Grant: Yeah, it's been an exciting and eventful conference so far. We learned a lot from the awesome presenters. And I guess everyone now has got probably full bellies and they're ready to have a good… they want to also hear about the presentation, right? And what is everything all about with this what's in your toolbox, right? They're probably pretty excited to learn more about the condo classroom.

0:49 Tony Gioventu: Yeah, okay. Well, I'll dive right in, and when I'm done I'll clear my screen share, and any questions or anything that comes up, feel free to interrupt me at any point if somebody has a question.

1:01 Ryan Grant: Okay, I'll put your slides up now.

1:04 Tony Gioventu: Okay, great. So, we as an association, we've been evaluating education programs for the last few years, and we started a pilot project last fall of integrated sessions that became webinars that could be accessible by anybody in a real-time fashion. And what we discovered through those — the focus from the feedback from participants, and there were about 1,700 participants — the focus feedback really was, let's have smaller content, shorter periods, so we could access topical items.

1:41 So we have retooled and redesigned it down to 20 sessions, and each session is going to be a much shorter period of time. I'm going to go through the 20 different sessions in outline. And remember that with strata corporations in the province, there are hundreds of variations. So these will address the significant governance issues, the legislative issues, what the Act, the regulations, your bylaws normally would prescribe under the standard bylaws.

2:18 But outside of that, strata corporations have their own governance resources.

2:24 – Confusing Notice Periods in the Act

2:24 Tony Gioventu: So as we move through this you'll get a sense that we're going to cover most of the bases through the programs, but it's going to still be very strata specific for individual questions. One of the challenges we have is that there are quite a few parts of the Strata Property Act that are a bit confusing. And it's not a series of legislative errors. What it is, is they're addressing different types of legislative requirements or different types of governance requirements.

2:59 And I'll give you a good example. Some sections of the Act say notice is required for four weeks, others 28 days, others 30 days. So you have these different time periods, but they relate to very different circumstances. Some are a notice or a request for a hearing, others are a notice for an 80 percent vote. And then of course we have the 20-day or the 14-day notice of the Act with respect to special general meetings.

3:27 We have all these different time periods in the Act. So one of the real objectives of all of these courses is to make it perfectly clear when these things apply, how they apply, and what the interpretations of them are going to be, so that it's clear for you as a strata corporation. Understand, there's 35,000 or so strata corporations across the province. They must all comply with the Strata Property Act and the regulations and the standard bylaws.

3:54 They'll have different variances, such as bare land strata versus a duplex versus a high-rise, versus a strata corporation with sections or types, or shared interest with other stratas, or air space parcels. So each of those oftentimes requires a very personal approach, to do an evaluation of the circumstances. So here are the 20 breakdowns of the sessions that we're going to provide, and these are going to be webinars.

4:25 Ryan Grant: Yeah, looks like… are you changing slides now? Because we only see the…

4:32 Tony Gioventu: I am, I am changing slides.

4:35 Ryan Grant: You're still on the sh… yeah, just the main first slide, which is just showing like PowerPoint open. Yeah, do you want to try and reshare the screen?

4:43 Tony Gioventu: Let me try it a different way.

4:47 – Session One: Strata Basics and Hierarchy

4:47 Tony Gioventu: How about we do it this way? Yeah, that way. Okay. So the 20 sessions will essentially give us a holistic operation of the entire Strata Property Act, the regulations. It doesn't go into very detailed information, and the reason for that, the conditions change specifically from strata corporation to strata corporation. So the first session is going to be focused entirely on the basic operations of a strata corporation.

5:22 So understanding the Act, standard bylaws, the regulations, the forms, and understanding the priority of how they sit within strata corporation hierarchy. So what's the priority law that overrides a strata corporation, which overrides owners, which overrides individual operations. And bylaws, regulations, forms are essential. Some are mandatory, some are not, some are certificates which can't be altered. And so there's just getting the basic understanding of how the Act functions will be the very first session that we deal with.

5:58 Every strata corporation is filed in the Land Title registry, including leasehold strata corporations, and leasehold strata corporations on indigenous lands that are part of the BC Charter. So you will find, if it is a strata corporation it's filed in the Land Title registry, and it will be filed with a registered strata plan. It will include a unit entitlement as part of the strata plan, or filed separately depending on when it was filed.

6:26 Voting entitlement, to determine how many votes per strata lot, will be filed if they are different than one per strata lot.

6:30 – Small Stratas and Council Responsibilities

6:33 Tony Gioventu: It's not necessary if they're all one per strata lot. And then any registered bylaws that have been filed or amended by the strata corporation. So that'll be the overview session that we begin with. Our second session is to deal with small strata corporations. We've always had duplexes, triplexes, but strata corporations of two to four units have several sections of the Act they don't have to comply with.

6:57 They're not required to get depreciation reports and they're not required to have electrical planning reports. But for many strata corporations that are small, they try to operate and function informally. So the objective of this session will be, what are the basics that a strata corporation has to manage for small two to four unit stratas. The next session deals with the roles and responsibilities of the strata corporation, and specifically the strata council members.

7:26 If we look at the strata corporations across the province, most strata corporations under 50 units are often self-managed. And it may have to do with geography, may have to do with their cost management function, they may have taken on the responsibility and to work as volunteers. But we also have a shortage of property managers across the province. So for smaller strata corporations the economics of having management aren't necessarily working out for them.

7:57 Within strata councils and strata corporations we're going to look at decision making, we're going to look at financial statements, maintenance programs and service contracts. Decision making is a flaw for strata corporations, especially if they're prone to using electronic services significantly for making decisions outside of bylaws that permit it.

8:13 – Meetings, Voting and Notice Packages

8:17 Tony Gioventu: We'll look closely at the meetings of strata corporations, all types of meetings, and the function of all of the meetings for the corporation itself: annual general meetings, special general meetings. We're going to look closely at council meetings as well, a waiver of notice, and then of course the benefits of information meetings. We'll talk closely also about conducting electronic meetings, and the limitations on voting methods.

8:49 And there really is only one limitation, and that is there are no secret ballots for electronic meetings, and it was intended for that purpose, so that it eliminates the potential of a dispute under the standard bylaws if somebody's demanding a secret ballot at an electronic meeting. Voting is going to be a separate session: how we vote on majority votes, three-quarters votes, 80 percent votes and unanimous resolutions, and voting at council meetings.

9:16 Every one of these votes is different, they're calculated differently, they have different thresholds. And of course the key to this is know your strata corporation. If your strata corporation is one vote per unit then this is going to be an easy calculation. But if you have any mixed use, the calculations become much more complicated. With respect to commercial residential mix, or all commercial, such as a commercial shopping centre or industrial park, the resolutions themselves are calculated in a different manner.

9:50 The calculations are still the same, but the thresholds are what you have to pay very close attention to. Then we'll apply those to how strata fees are calculated, special levies are calculated, wind-up settlements and payouts are calculated. Those are directly related to your voting thresholds as well. We're going to deal with creating notice packages for meetings: so the time periods for general meetings, the reports, the contents and the records that you have to include with the notice package.

10:20 The requirements also for specific resolutions: if you have a three-quarters vote, 80 percent vote or unanimous vote resolution, the exact wording of those resolutions has to be contained within the notice package. We'll review and do an overview of those, and as to why they're critical. The actual convening of a general meeting is also important. There are many layers to it.

10:46 There was the notice process in the earlier session, but the process of registration, voting cards when and if they're required, in-person or electronic meetings, who chairs the meetings, the role of the chairperson and the authority of the chairperson, how proxies are authorized and represented, and then of course the different types of voting within the meeting. As we set them out in the agendas you'll see that there'll be a little crossover between these sessions, just to make it convenient for the users who are going to be looking at the sessions as basically a fast viewing webinar.

11:19 – Recordkeeping, Bylaws and Enforcement

11:19 Tony Gioventu: Recordkeeping is also a significant part of strata corporation operations. Historic documents are absolutely critical, to ensure that strata corporations take advantage of major repairs that had warranties, haven't lost the documents, they're actually following up on what their obligations are. Records that are required to be provided to the owners, or to subsequent or potential purchasers, what has to be accompanied with a Form B for example, an information certificate, who's entitled to request copies of records, how they request them, and what you can charge for copies of records.

11:58 Then we'll deal with the bylaws of the strata corporation. We'll talk about standard bylaws, new bylaws strata corporations can adopt. We won't be going into the particulars of each bylaw, as they do require some very close crafting for each strata corporation, but we will talk about the enforcement process, when and how fines and penalties can be applied, and also how rules are adopted and how they apply to common property and common facilities.

12:25 Hearings and bylaw enforcement are interconnected, because one often relates to the other. But how a hearing is conducted by the strata council, and if we're dealing with bylaw enforcement, when does a strata corporation or a strata council consider filing an application to the tribunal to get them to do something, stop doing something, or to recover fines, damages and insurance deductibles. And again, these are all intertwined with bylaw enforcement and bylaws.

12:59 We have a session that's crafted specific for the BC Human Rights Code: how it applies to strata corporations, how it applies to bylaws, alteration requests that are interconnected with accessibility and the need to accommodate individuals for disabilities, such as medical disabilities or diagnosed disabilities that may relate to pet exemptions or other types of conditions.

13:03 – Human Rights, Budgets and Depreciation Reports

13:24 Tony Gioventu: Finances are a significant part of development of a strata corporation: how you plan for the annual budget, a model of an annual budget with a schedule showing how fees are calculated and reported, collecting strata fees and special levies, when interest can be applied, and then of course the procedures of notice for collections. And we'll interconnect that with depreciation reports. So I think the big thing for strata corporations is, how do we contract services for a report, and for the application for the strata when we're doing budgeting and significant maintenance and renewals programs?

14:02 The real issue is, how do we get somebody to do our report? And this is now a mandatory requirement as of July 1 this year, so there are no longer any exemptions for strata corporations of five units or greater. Managing the contingency funds is also interconnected with depreciation planning and financial operations. So for strata corporations, being clear on what investments can be considered under the Act, how the decisions are made for investments, and the limit of authority on the strata corporation, which is your council, to maximize these.

14:38 And then of course to take the maximizing of your investments to support reserve fund growth, because strata corporation investments are not taxable with respect to special levies or for reserve funds, and compounding those to actually get the greatest amount of benefit out of them. I think one of the issues that many strata corporations struggle with is insurance, of course. We'll look at the requirements under the Insurance Act for delivery of insurance prior to a renewal every year, and quotes and evaluations, so that strata corporations have time to be able to assess their insurance renewals.

15:06 – Insurance Coverage, Claims and PIPA

15:21 Tony Gioventu: Mandatory perils and minimum values that have to be covered, and optional coverages that are available. And of course a basic understanding on owner, tenant and landlord insurance and their liabilities. Insurance claims, when they do arise, determining when an owner may be responsible for a claim, how the strata corporation can recover an insurance deductible, and if it's a common expense of the corporation that's not recoverable, how do we pay for this?

15:50 And there are three potential options to pay for an insurance deductible, which is a duty that really nobody can get away from. And then one last session that we will have separately will be dealing with surveillance and the Personal Information Protection Act. Many strata corporations have fobs, they have cameras, they record and document how residents, owners, tenants, occupants and visitors access certain parts of the buildings. And it's critical within your bylaws that you meet the requirements of PIPA so that you're not within any kind of conflict.

16:24 And we'll talk about short-term accommodations. This is a growing issue for strata corporations: the limitation on fines and penalties, how they may be collected, how you enforce this bylaw, how you gather data, how you gather information. We'll look at age restriction bylaws, how they can be adopted. And now we have a number of exemptions under age restrictions, that there is a requirement for family members of those people who comply with the age restrictions.

17:01 So we'll look at that whole scenario as well. And then the final session at this point will be understanding electrical planning reports. So this is again going to be the basics: who do we hire for the report, what's the essence of the report, what does it give us, and what do we look for when we're actually commissioning somebody to do a report for our community. And Ryan, I am down to the bottom line already.

17:28 – Q&A: Ontario Model and Mandatory Education

17:30 Ryan Grant: Wow, that was great. I mean, it looks like a really well-packed curriculum there for the owners. There's a lot of daunting information.

17:39 Tony Gioventu: I don't know how to stop sharing my screen now though, that's the problem.

17:49 Ryan Grant: Perfect, there we go. There we go. So yes, it looks like we do have some questions.

17:55 Tony Gioventu: Yeah, people have generic questions, I've got time, so this is great. And I just wanted to say to everybody, we will be striking out a number of focus groups. So if anybody would like to participate in the focus groups around each of the sessions, and you have a specific interest, pop me an email. I will put you on a focus group list and we'll be in touch with you.

18:16 We'll start doing the sessions and the focus groups in August.

18:22 Ryan Grant: Awesome. So one of the questions looks like, how does the condo classroom compare to Ontario's mandatory program, and how is it working there? Do you see BC following suit?

18:35 Tony Gioventu: I don't think BC will follow suit, for two reasons. The first reason is, I have actually participated and gone through the Ontario model, and the Ontario model provides very little information. This is going to provide very detailed information, reference, and it will provide links to resources that people can use at the same time. So RFPs, sample notice letters, sample reports that can be used, they'll be linked into each of the sessions so the consumer can actually use them.

19:07 At this point in history, there is no movement to making education for strata councils mandatory. Part of the reason for that is, Ontario didn't stratify or create condos out of row housing or duplexes or smaller communities, and so they actually have half as many condo corporations as we have strata corporations, in spite of the fact that their population is three times larger. So we would be putting on, for example, on a fiveplex or a fourplex, we'd be putting on a burden to volunteers, knowing how many volunteers we have, an obligation for an education program.

19:48 The overall compliance of that would be daunting at best. In auditing other jurisdictions — Ontario isn't the only jurisdiction we've audited and looked at — we've also looked at the Queensland model. They have a very good model as well, in Australia, and their model is very much what we're moving towards: easily accessible, topical education items that provide direct resources that the public can use almost immediately.

20:21 You can download a form, you can use it, you can download a sample RFP, fill in the blanks for your strata corporation to get somebody to give you a proposal to do your electrical planning reports or depreciation reports, and you're on your way. And those are the tools that are really missing from the Ontario system.

20:42 Ryan Grant: Yeah, and that sounds pretty important to have, right? You need templates for people to use and guidance like that.

20:49 Tony Gioventu: Templates will solve a lot of your problems. Even a sample template of how you give somebody notice of a complaint of a bylaw violation, right, like that's a perfect starting place. Or an alteration, a response to an alteration request: how do we respond to this, what kind of information can we gather? That can all easily be evaluated in a linked-up bulletin or form that is very quickly explained.

21:16 Ryan Grant: Perfect. There is another question: how can you access the condo classroom?

21:21 Tony Gioventu: As soon as they will be posted, they will all be webinars posted to a designated YouTube website. They will be distributed, it'll be made available to the public everywhere, and everyone will be able to access them, real time, asynchronously, no question. Unless YouTube shuts down, I think we'll be in great shape. But if that were to happen, we will definitely host them anyhow on our site, so they'd be fully accessible.

21:49 Ryan Grant: Awesome. There was another one, but I think you basically answered it. They were just wondering about, if they have a CHOA membership, does that give them free access to this information? Is this content free?

22:02 Tony Gioventu: It will be access to the public in general. Membership won't be mandatory or required. It's very much part of the mission statement of the association to promote education and to make it available to the public. That's really a benefit to the public. But as we discovered when we look through our hundreds of calls that our staff deal with every day, the greater issue is, every strata corporation has something unique about it that you have to resolve or identify.

22:40 And so I was doing a session the other day with Realtors about the type of information every strata corporation should have, and I went through an inventory of all of the documents they should have on file, and it was actually like 22 different divisions of documents, because it has to include all your land title documents, your insurance documents, your minutes, your records, the basic contracts that you have for your different service providers.

23:09 If you're a strata council making decisions you need a copy of these documents in front of you, whether you're looking at them on your iPad or whether you've got a binder in front of you with a complete set of documents. It's the only competent way you can make decisions, is by having the real data in front of you to be able to move forward. So it's interesting, just documents alone, it's substantial.

23:33 It's overwhelming, I think, for most strata corporations.

23:38 Ryan Grant: Yeah, they need a whole manual just on all the documents, right?

23:40 – Strata Manager Shortage and Burnout

23:43 Ryan Grant: Everything. There is some question that I even have as well. I was wondering more about, have you heard any new statistics from the BCFSA on the licensed strata managers? Is that increasing this year? I know last year they didn't have too many that were newly licensed, and that's putting a burden on the industry, which means that self-managed stratas are having a harder time when they want to go and try and find a management company, because those companies are hiring… very large stratas, right, that they're kind of sifting through, and not able to provide service as much to the smaller stratas, right?

24:24 It's more competitive out there as clients trying to find a manager. Do you have any insight on that lately, and how that's going?

24:34 Tony Gioventu: Well, it's kind of like take a number, depending on what industry you're in right now. Like, there's a shortage of people in so many industries right now. But the strata management industry has been struggling for probably about 15 years. This is not a new challenge. It's a hard profession. Many strata managers, in a lot of ways, are communicators and social workers and peacemakers. They have these incredible expectations by owners.

25:09 Owners automatically come with a sense of entitlement, that they should be served: we own this property, we pay your salary. And in exchange for that, managers have an incredible volume of emails, complaints and communications, and they're administering and coordinating all of this for their strata councils every month. Because of the shortage of strata managers, the difficulty we have is that so many of them have enormous workloads.

25:38 The number of properties per manager that are in the industry right now are incredibly high. And you start compounding that with the number of units and capacity, and there isn't enough time for a manager to be able to meet all of the expectations. So they really have to prioritize and evaluate how they're going to manage their time. So needless to say, it's a hard industry. I don't think it's very well compensated, for part of the problem.

26:14 Some of the companies that are out there who've had managers for 25 or 30 years are the real heroes, because they have been managing the workloads for their staff very well and they've been compensating them well. But that's not the case across the industry. It has a very high burnout rate also. And then of course, we're dealing with real people on the front lines. It's not a surprise when a manager just says, I'm not doing this anymore, because they've been targeted by two or three individuals and the harassment is off the charts, absolutely unmanageable.

26:48 So when you balance all of that together, you step back and say, so who would want to be a strata manager? And a little bit of the challenge, but if you look at the portfolio of what a manager is managing: if you have a manager that has four or six high-rise buildings in downtown Vancouver, they're managing half a billion plus in assets. What kind of administrative support are they getting?

27:17 Are they getting enough compensation to make this actually worth their while? Is there enough internal administrative support in their offices so they aren't actually wasting their time on the tedious day-to-day communication demands that are coming into the office? So the whole management industry, I'm of the impression it kind of needs a bit of a rethink, because it's really hard on frontline managers. They're not having fun, I can say that with all experience, and from every one of them who calls and says, is there a better place I can work?

27:53 Like, that's not an unusual phone call, I hate to say.

27:57 Ryan Grant: So no. And that's kind of why we have the conference as well. We've been coming in trying to bring the technology side of it, and then we try and work with associations like CHOA, and you guys are working on the condo classroom, nice curriculum for the strata councils to be educated on how to help operate and utilize their… if they have a strata manager, utilize them like an administrative personnel, right, that staff that works for them.

28:28 A lot of people do kind of rephrase the strata manager as an administrator, right? They're not there to just do everything in the complex. They're there to help out and have some experience, right, have knowledge and help guide the councils, but not do every little thing under the sun, right? It needs a cohesive kind of environment between the strata council and the managers.

28:52 – Negotiating Elevator Contracts With Consultants

28:53 Tony Gioventu: And there's an expectation too. I'm just thinking of my own building. We're a 250 unit high-rise building. When our elevator contract came up for renewal, we did not have an expectation that our manager was going to negotiate it, or assist us with negotiating it. They are incredibly complex contracts that are written in favour of the elevator company. We hired an independent consultant who negotiates these, plus we had our legal services review it.

29:28 It's a five-year contract that has an incredibly high value and a high risk to it, if our elevators are not functioning. You don't want to have to deal with 250 unhappy property owners, right? So you manage the risk along with the value along with the performance needed. Don't expect your managers to do these things. This is why we have professionals, and we probably need to pump up our professional services budget line items in our budget a bit more and get more service support.

30:03 Somebody said to me the other day, how did you find out about having a consultant to negotiate your contract? And I thought, therein is part of the problem: people aren't even aware that there are consultants who specialize in this, right? So we did renegotiate, and we renegotiated a five-year contract with great terms, and all of our needs were met, as well as our service provider, and we've had great service.

30:27 So those simple little actions of not downloading some of those expectations on your manager can really help to create a good relationship with the manager as well.

30:40 Ryan Grant: Which is great. Looks like we have one more question here. Do you combine resources with other BC condo associations, and do you each offer same or overlapping courses? Just wondering, so they need to know if they need to sign up to other associations who follow them.

31:00 Tony Gioventu: So, we don't interact on a professional level with other associations. A very, very strong reason for that is because as an organization we maintain a very dedicated commitment to our bylaws and to our mission. But we also, as a result of professionals on staff, we carry professional liability insurance for the services that we provide, and that can be compromised when working with other partners who are not insured.

31:30 So, as an organization that serves stratas across the province — and when I say across the province, we had calls from as far north as Fort Nelson this morning under the firestorm — so it's something that we really focus our services very specifically to strata corporations, their operations and their management structures across the province. So we definitely have dialogue with other organizations, and share interest on partner committees, but with respect to education and resources, I think our insurers would probably bail on us if we crossed that boundary.

32:12 Ryan Grant: Yeah, perfect. So, long story short, they should be looking at all the associations if they want to, you know.

32:19 – Densification, the CRT and Local Bylaws

32:21 Tony Gioventu: Absolutely.

32:23 Ryan Grant: Absolutely, not you're not working together, so there might be something they might, if they only look at one, right?

32:29 Tony Gioventu: Yeah, absolutely, I would certainly do that for sure.

32:31 Ryan Grant: Yeah, great. And then I guess any comments from myself. I was wondering more about the municipality or provincial changes there, where they allowed the single family homes to convert to up to, you know, six strata lots. And I think that's going to be putting on a bigger burden to the system in many ways, in relation to not having enough strata managers, right? And there's going to be even more demand for this type of curriculum, right?

33:02 Because the stratas need to then self-educate, right? And they'll need tools, solutions hopefully from all of us tech providers, that can help out to make their lives easier.

33:17 Tony Gioventu: Yeah, the tribunal has really helped, because it's given every strata, from a duplex to a full scale 1,100 unit development, it's given by default a type of regulatory system. My strata is not complying with the Act, I can file a complaint with the tribunal, we can get a decision ordering this. So I think that the tribunal has had a good effect. A full slate of education programs is very helpful, so that people have quick access to a resource that will also make a difference.

33:58 There's lots of publications. BC Housing has a section under its consumer protection area called maintenance matters. They're all operational bulletins that I recommend everybody download. There's over 20 of them now, and they all deal with certain component items in buildings, and often this is just focused strata corporations. And then of course the variances between municipalities are quite dynamic. So if you're in the city of Vancouver and you're dealing with heat pumps, versus if you're in the city of Penticton dealing with heat pumps, it's quite a dynamic difference, right?

34:36 And so we work closely with the municipalities to try and get some alignment on how programs are delivered, but they're independent and they're variable. So unless something comes down from a provincial level, we always start with every strata, when you're dealing with technical issues or property issues, always start with local government, because there are differences community to community.

35:01 Ryan Grant: Very good point. Well, with that being said, it looks like we don't have any further questions. We are just five minutes short, so that's okay, we'll get a little bit of time back and let people go on a little bit of a break until 1:40. So other than that, do you have any other words there Tony before we wrap that one up?

35:21 Tony Gioventu: I don't, but I do have to say, for every strata corporation, don't panic over the mandatory requirements for depreciation reports and electrical planning reports. Just start a comfortable planning process now. And if you're getting an exorbitant quote for a report, that may be 20 or $30,000 for an electrical planning report or a depreciation report, step back, call around. Unless you have an incredibly extensive commercial property of strata units, those are not realistic numbers.

35:56 So there are a lot of service providers out there. Just take a breath, get more quotes, talk to more people. And the service providers who are doing most of these reports are actually very reasonable cost wise to do them.

36:13 Ryan Grant: Yeah, that's my experience as well. We just had one done at our strata and it was quite affordable.

36:17 Tony Gioventu: Yeah, exactly. And the good news about electrical planning reports, it's a one-shot deal. So once it's done it's on the books, you're fine, move along.

36:27 Ryan Grant: Yeah, perfect. Then thanks so much Tony, and everyone really enjoyed that. It was kind of short, but a preview of what's to come in a big way.

36:38 Tony Gioventu: Exactly right. I mean, people just need this information to understand where to go and learn.

36:45 Ryan Grant: Yeah, and see what's coming out in the province, right? And yeah, we really thank you for your time and for bringing that program together for everyone.

36:53 Tony Gioventu: That's a long way to go yet, but I'm excited, it's going to be a great program.

36:58 Ryan Grant: So it's a journey, there is a way of putting it, right? All right, thank you so much Tony, take care, and we'll get on to the next one in a couple minutes. Thanks.

37:14 Tony Gioventu: Great, thanks so much Ryan, bye for now.